Return of Sinbad 1, 2

[manche]

The great beginning of the whole series.

The great introduction of each member of the crew (Sinbad's trick with the speaking dog and his manhunt with guards, Doubar's joy of reunion with Sinbad which gave him enormous stregth, Firouz's long scientific monologue when he got the idea to greet Sinbad after ten minutes of talking, how Rongar showed the others how he can be useful, the first meeting between Sinbad, Maeve and Dermott).

The first encouter with Rumina and the start of the war with her.

I like these two episodes because there is a lot of humour on the one hand and we can find there a few emocional and serious moments on the other hand (the loss of Dim Dym, the death of Mustapha).

Great characters, except the crew and Rumina, also Turock (I know he was in the last episode, but there he got more room, his line towards Sinbad: "It is an interesting way of the suicide." was great), Casib (he looked as an arrogant fool at the beginning but his character developed the very interesting way), Dim Dym and Mustapha of course (this guy was great, funny, the good fighter, I was very sad because of his death, he could have been a valuable member of the crew, I talked about it in the topic for the episode Hell House).

I hesitated if i should create the topic for the each part of this pilot separately and I decided to create only one topic in the end, It can be change if you will want to change it.

[Doubar]

Yeah, it was a lovely start indeed. The introduction of the crew was nicely done, and I totally loved Firouz' babbling and how he didn't really acknowledge Sinbad at all. We'd only seen him for a few secs and still we already knew what he was like. xD

And it's true that the mixture of humour and the beginning war was interesting. I can see though why some poeple accused the show of being too Disney-ish back then. It's already obvious in these two eps: everything was somehow bright and never too gloomy, never too dangerous, never too serious. It's what I loved and still love about S1 to no end but what others again didn't favour much.

At any rate I, too, like all the chars. Although Casib at first was rather annoying. xP But I really grew to like him in part two. He really loved Adena and that's just great.

Even after all those years though I don't understand the purpose of Mustafa's introduction. He was introduced as if being destined to be part of the crew and then, just like this, he was killed. They made a rather huge effort to tie him in if he was but a red shirt, and he was on a promo pic after all... so I sometimes still wonder what that was meant to be. If plans just changed or what. It's the one thing that irks me most about this two-parter because it doesn't make sense at all (not that kidnapping the princess made much more sense though, lol).

Oh, btw, I think you decided well with opening one thread for both eps because they do belong together.
'

[maeve3000]

May 15, 2013 7:18:11 GMT -5 Doubar said:

Even after all those years though I don't understand the purpose of Mustafa's introduction. He was introduced as if being destined to be part of the crew and then, just like this, he was killed. They made a rather huge effort to tie him in if he was but a red shirt, and he was on a promo pic after all... so I sometimes still wonder what that was meant to be. If plans just changed or what. It's the one thing that irks me most about this two-parter because it doesn't make sense at all (not that kidnapping the princess made much more sense though, lol).

Oh, btw, I think you decided well with opening one thread for both eps because they do belong together.
'

as I know there was it never ever planned that Oris will stay.
Back then I thing he was "only" a model and this pretty well known at the model industry.
I really liked that he stayed Mustapha was intresting as well BUT I really loved Rongar at most from the firts begin.

my favourite scene is still Maeves first scene
and the rose garden of Dim-Dim... I loved the roses, loved how they went through it.
and I loved Jacqs curls there ;D

[hannibal]

May 15, 2013 8:33:29 GMT -5 maeve3000 said:

May 15, 2013 7:18:11 GMT -5 Doubar said:

Even after all those years though I don't understand the purpose of Mustafa's introduction. He was introduced as if being destined to be part of the crew and then, just like this, he was killed. They made a rather huge effort to tie him in if he was but a red shirt, and he was on a promo pic after all... so I sometimes still wonder what that was meant to be. If plans just changed or what. It's the one thing that irks me most about this two-parter because it doesn't make sense at all (not that kidnapping the princess made much more sense though, lol).

Oh, btw, I think you decided well with opening one thread for both eps because they do belong together.
'

as I know there was it never ever planned that Oris will stay.
Back then I thing he was "only" a model and this pretty well known at the model industry.
I really liked that he stayed Mustapha was intresting as well BUT I really loved Rongar at most from the firts begin.

my favourite scene is still Maeves first scene
and the rose garden of Dim-Dim... I loved the roses, loved how they went through it.
and I loved Jacqs curls there ;D

This is it. Rongar wasn't supposed to stay, but i read somewhere that the producers were very suprised by Oris, so they decided to keep him. That must be why mustapha was killed... They had to make a choice.

But indeed, that was a very good introduction to the show! Wow!

[manche]

I also read about the fact that the character of Rongar was planned only for the pilot, but this plan had been changed.

I read at tv com, that Mustapha's death was created for more dramatic effect. It was really strange how he was introduced, it looked that he will be a part of the crew. He had charisma and his friendship with the rest of the crew was nicely done. For example his first meeting with Maeve was great. But on the other hand his death would not have sparked many emotional reactions, if his character was only superficially rendered, it was done with a lot of characters in the second season. And I must admit that his death was very emotional scene for me. How was Rongar destroyed and how Sinbad told him that his mother had raised the very brave son.

I also like the style the first season more, it was taken with fun, for example the usage of the lines during the fights with monsters. It could be consider as a little childish thing, but this childness has the big charm for me and I still like it. And also in the first season the scripters were able to create more serious and dramatic moments. The second season was more darker, but it was taken more seriously, but it did not work for me too much, because I was never afraid that a member of the crew dies.

One question towards Admir: Do you think that he wanted to eat Firouz when he invited him into his cabin? Maybe his hunger was too strong and he was not able to control himself but I think that the rest of the crew would notice if our invertor suddenly dissapeared. And how Sinbad know that his tail is full of the poison?

And I like the comparison how Maeve was a little aloof to the rest of the crew in her first episode, when we know how her feelings towards them has changed during the whole season. Sinbad, Doubar and Firouz had been friends for a longer time of course and although Rongar did not know them for a long time he had a good relationship toward the rest of the crew since the beginning.

[manche]

And can I asked why do you think that the kidnapping of the princess was meaningless?

[Doubar]

Aw right. So Rongar was not supposed to stay. Hum, now that you actually mention that... it sounds familiar. Bet someone's told me before and I just forgot. *facepalms* At any rate it would make sense then to have introduced Mustapha like that. Poor guy, really. Must've thought he catched a nice role in a lovely show, only to be kicked out by the red shirt-guy (because let's face it, if Mustapha was originally thought to stay, Rongar would've only been introduced to make a good red shirt). x.x

manche: It wasn't necessarily meaningless since it was essential for the plot and Sinbad's involvement and such. But it didn't make sense at all. Because Turok wanted to kill her anyway and force Casib to marry Rumina. It makes absolutely no sense at all that he would kidnap the girl and wait for Casib to arrive only to kill her still. One could argue that he might have wished to trap Casib and place a spell on him so that he falls in love with Rumina, but he could have just killed the Princess and kidnapped Casib then. So yeah, I just don't see any reason as to why the girl should be kidnapped other than getting the show started. ;D

[manche]

I alway understood this as the next example of Turock and Rumina playing with people. They could have killed her simply and forced Casib into the marriage but they wanted a little fun, they wanted to enjoy his desperation before and they probably planned to forced Casib into the marriage after this. And about the involvement of Sinbad in the whole case they did not know at the beginning.

I am not sure what role in Turock's plan had Admir.

[Firouz]

Well, for Rongar, he wasn't supposed to stay. It really was kind of a walk on role, hense, why he didn't speak.

But it was also theorized by many that either one or the other was a prince or some other kind of highly placed regent and the other was a trusted bodyguard or advisor that fled with them when the other was able to escape. Loyal to a fault both.

As to Adena's kidnapping, I always thought it was a power play between Rumina and Turok to show Caliph and Casib just how powerful they really were. After all, they were in the palace. They destroyed soldiers with magical fire, summoned the harpies easily, ect....

So the kidnapping was just another power play they needed to do for their own sense of self-power and arrogance.

And Admir, he was placed there to undermind the Caliph and Casib. A way for Turok to rule from the shadows. A way to put Caliph and then later on Casib in their place-puppet rulers with no real power.

[manche]

I agree with you completely, Rumina and Turock simply love playing with people, they want to see their desperation and they want to demonstrate their power.

[Firouz]

[tzigone]

Hi, I'm new and wanted to join in the discussion. I watched the series in it's original run, and just decided to look it up again earlier this year. I enjoyed the first season more originally, but watched both. I watched all the first season this time, then watched the first five eps of the second season (wanted to see Rongar's backstory ep) but not the rest. So basically all my comments on the board will be without memory or insight into season 2.

The premier has several interesting bits.

Firstly, I wanted to ask a couple wardrobe questions: does anyone know the name of the blue garment Maeve wears over her outfit and has anyone gotten a good look at Firouz's pendant - I'm curious to as if it has any meaning regarding the character's religion/philosophy.

Now, lets get started: the beginning always seems a little strange to me on rewatching. I get that Sinbad couldn't find any of his friends, but given his pretty noble nature, it seems strange that he immediately goes to thievery for food without even a mention of working for it. And he's friends with the Caliph, but doesn't try to approach him either. But since one probably doesn't just call upon royalty without an invitation (and they'd probably not believe him/let him in), I'll let it slide. Interestingly, the Caliph didn't seem to know he was supposed to be dead.

I really enjoy the reunion with Doubar. I absolutely love how happy Doubar is to see him and how he doesn't even notice he's pulled blocks from the wall. That said, some of the acting in that scene is just painful - the dialog contributes. I'm sorry, the flower/dragon line is really clunky (and patently false) to me.

So, our earliest establishing of Doubar's characters shows us he's very strong, loves his brother very much, and gets into fights. All of those will be seen again later, though less of the fights against non-evil. I really do like the Doubar/Sinbad relationship. I'm very big on sibling relationship and family relationships and show in fiction. Romance is great, but so much easier to come by.

I like Mustapha. He's kind of one note, but then he only had one episode to establish himself. I love his casual response to Sinbad saying they couldn't sail together because he was due to be beheaded later in the day. I've seen some speculation as to him viewing Maeve negatively, but I thought he liked her after she tossed him. Actually, it has become my own personal headcanon that he and Doubar became friends in a similar fashion. He and Rongar make an odd match. Mustapha is friendly and outgoing. Rongar is downright rude - doesn't even shake Sinbad's hand. He's really very standoffish in general in the beginning - how many episodes pass before we see him smile? I actually wonder if he deliberately cultivates the intimidating persona? He noticed Admir's suspicious behavior earlier, but it doesn't seem like he told anyone about it, does it? I get not telling Sinbad - there's no proof, no evidence at all, and there'd be no reason he'd be believed and he doesn't know Sinbad. But it doesn't seem like he told Mustpaha, either, does it? Also, I really liked his pushing Sinbad (who is a virtual stranger) away to be alone with Mustapha in his last moment, though. I do wish Rongar had gotten in that killing blow instead of Sinbad.

Another one of those pilot/rest-of-show discontinuities that pops up in so many shows is Firouz's tomato-throwing invention. I'll forgive that tomatoes are new world crop and would not be present, because it really is a joke. But we never see Firouz do an overly-complicating, Rube Goldberg machine again (which I'm glad of). Sure, he events lots of things, but not overly-complicated/do nothing devices. Like Sinbad said - he has a lot of time on his hands. One thing about Firouz that's pretty consistent through the first season is that he's an energetic sort of person. He's almost always thinking and doing and talking. I really don't think he's one for quiet, solitary, relaxation. I actually didn't notice until a later viewing that he hugged Dim-Dim, too. So they know each other pretty well.

Dim-Dim is important - at least in the goal of finding him later in the series - but we don't see an incredible lot of him. He's sort of plot-device to get Maeve in. Sinbad says he was like a father to Doubar and him. But he's also said Doubar as like a father to him (and that Dim-Dim was like a father to the prince - I wonder if Sinbad just throws around the term lightly). So I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to work out exactly what the dynamic between Sinbad, Doubar, and Dim-Dim was when they were kids. Besides that, Dim-Dim is friendly and forgiving (see the prince) and very mild in his approach to things. He knows Dermott started trouble with Sinbad, but just presents the idea, then pretends to completely accept Maeve's explanation and brush it aside. He does seem to have some precognitive ability (as does Caipra, but not Turok or Rumina). He got blown away by a demon, but chained the devil, so I'm not sure what to make of his power-level. But he's wise and good. He knows the story with Dermott, but Maeve seemingly didn't tell him, and I doubt Dermott did. He knows something about the bracelet, but didn't volunteer any info.

Maeve's introduction is fairly cliched, but I'm more interested in the difference here and later. Firstly, I'd think she'd have known who Sinbad was and been less aggressive - it seems a pretty obvious conclusion that he might be the person Dim-Dim sent her after since she's on a magic island that no one knows where is. But what's interesting is the aggression - we don't really see her immediately react to people like that later. Nor does Dermott, actually. He just attacks Sinbad for no reason. This, combined with her "I know what you want" and "Dermott doesn't care for men" and her "Dermott'll have your eyes out" leads me to wonder if they're just used to being very on-guard because a lot of men see a woman alone as an easy target. To me, this episode presents Maeve as very new to the study of magic - a few months on hands-on experience at best. I'm particularly thinking of Dim-Dim's dialog when he's teaching her to create fireballs. In any event, we know she's been studying with Dim-Dim for less than two years, because he was in Baghdad two years ago, advising the Caliph. Maeve also doesn't want to bond with any of the others in the beginning, and later they've all become good friends. Maeve doesn't want to share her secrets, and that'll remain.

It's after really seeing him in action that Maeve changes gears. She says "well done" to Sinbad and that's really her first overture of friendliness that I can think of (he's already made one and we don't see any real interaction with Maeve and the others this ep, I don't think). He's gone up in her estimation, as have they all, I think. And then the end; when we get the information that Dermott isn't really a hawk. It's a very sad moment. And Sinbad doesn't know what's going on, even though Maeve is upset enough to not be hiding that secret just then - "look at Dermott" is fairly big clue. She's just so upset - she had real hope that the curse on Dermott would be broken, and then it didn't happen.

Turok and Rumina. I get the sense of Rumina being quite young here. She's so "daddy's little girl," if you know what I mean. And she's so childish. She wants to play with her "toys." She's unfamiliar with fear. Plus she's held up as a potential wife for the prince, who maybe 20 at most? She's very short-term-goal here. What feels good? Big plan to take over Baghdad, but she's got the hots for the sailor, so she's going to derail the entire plan. On the other hand, it was her dad's plan, not hers. Even later in the series, she's just not that politically motivated, is she? She wants power, certainly, but doesn't seem to have any goal for what to do with it. Turok was a bit of moron to turn his head away from his enemy just to say he had it all handled, wasn't he?

And Sinbad. He seems remarkably content to just take what the world throws at him. His fortune is gone, and he doesn't seem to care. He's missing two years of his life, has no idea what happened to him or what he did, and he doesn't even seem curious. It's just very different from the typical hero's behavior - usually they spend lots of time and effort trying to figure out what happened to them. That said, I'm not sure: Doubar seems an open book, what he thinks and feels are very obvious. Maeve, on the other hand, tries to keep her secrets, play her cards close the vest. She wants to appear tough and strong. Her vulnerability is only apparent when it comes to Dermott. She's closed off, but it's obvious to the audience. There are a few tidbits in season one (can't comment on season two) that indicate that perhaps Sinbad is closed off, but appears to open. That actually ties in with Dim-Dim's "wounds in her heart" comment to Sinbad to me. Because Sinbad rarely seems very wounded. Well, except in regards to Lea, but she seems plot-devicey to me. He usually seems quite healthy and healed, despite the battering. Will comment more in later ep discussion.

As much as I enjoy Sinbad talking about the world growing dull and Doubar griping about commerce ruling the seas, I do have to snark a bit. In the real world, it was always about commerce, not adventuring. But Sinbad's lines there are indicative of his nature. He likes the adventure. But always for the just cause; he's not mercenary material. Sinbad is good with people, he's brave and good and very smart. He's a brilliant tactician. But he's not much for long-term strategy at all, is he? Throughout the season, he seems to have no real plan to find info on Dim-Dim. He goes from place to place and if a lead comes up, he follows it. But he doesn't seem to actively seek information (as we see Maeve do, on occasion). Anyone watch Avatar: The Last Airbender; when it comes to long-term strategy, Sokka has definitely got him beat. And I wonder if the two attitudes don't go hand-in-hand? Sinbad lives in the moment, and thinks in the moment.

One thing I really want to try to get a handle on is when Sinbad really starts to think of Dermott as more than a bird. I know what Maeve said here, but I don't think Sinbad gets it yet. Sure, he's talking to Dermott at the end, but he really more talking to himself. Later, it seems different to me. You know, I'd misrembered the series. I'd remembered Sinbad having a line that went something like "Dermot wasn't always a hawk, was he?" and, of course, that would have been proof that he knew. But there is no such line (must have come from a fanfic, I guess). So when was the moment. He knew by the the first season finale, I'm sure, but when did he he really draw that line, do you think?

Anyway, I enjoy the episode(s). The ending, in particular, leaves us at a good starting point for the series:an honorable quest in finding Dim-Dim, a personal goal for Maeve in defeating Rumina, and with a good villain to challenge them in the future.

[tzigone]

Sinbad calls Dermott "featherbrain" in this one - I see this occasionally in fic and wondered about the source. Is this actually the only time it was ever used on-screen?

[manche]

It always makes me laugh the scene when Doubar caused mass escape of prisoners and he did not notice it at all because he was so excited about his meeting with Sinbad. Similarly I like the scene when Doubar and Mustapha arrived to save Sinbad. ("What are you waiting for?" "For me, I guess." especially and how Mustapha made a way through the crowd).

And do you think that Admir really wanted to eat Firouz when he invited him to his cabin? It would be suspicious if our inventor disappeared suddenly.