Arabian cultures and AoS, plz feel free to inquire

[Eric/Deamus]

@ mj you're sooooooo welcome my friend so glad you find the info useful for you
and i want to thank you for your visit to the thread and actually i'm so impressed by your interest in the Arabian culture that's great

Then about your questions honey, i just excuse you for replying in the morning because i'm just back home from an invitation and really so tired and sleepy so i'll give the answers you seek for once i get some rest
again so happy about your interest and your questions and will be happier to give you suitable answers

[Eric/Deamus]

MJ, as i promised

Jul 31, 2012 12:08:58 GMT -5 MJ said:

Tetisheri, thanks so much, this info is great! It did make me wonder though, I know that there are some exceptions in Ramadan (small children, pregnant women, the sick, the elderly etc) but what about old timey sailors who have to work all day in the hot sun? I can just imagion a hungry and thirsty sailor climbing up in the rigging and getting overcome by dehydration and falling down breaking his neck on the deck. And I guess if I can imagine it, someone else will have as well and thought of something to prevent it.
So could sailors postpone their fasting? Or do it in bits and bobs? Can you tell me how that works?

Well you are sooo right in this,,, the people who can not fasting those who simply can't,, means eldrey, small children, the pregnant women and the sick people AND ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAVELING,,, in stead of that the pregnant, the eldrey and the sick should feed some fasting poor people each day of the month,, or sometimes if they can't even cook or prepare something they give them money enough to eat and been satisfied,, for the kids it's different,, they start fasting since they can do it -eg at age of 7- but for a little time and every year you add some hours of fasting till he can do it completely,, it's like a progress
NOW FOR THE TRAVELERS which includes sailors, well yeah you are right in this too,, for people who travel for very long traveling -actually there is specific limits and calculations of Km if they pass them so they should not fasting- as you know traveling in those days were a way TOO hard on horses or camels in deserts for days,,, in very hot temperature,,,, the same for sailors as you said,,, so they have to postpone their fasting until they become able to or they can feed someone as i previously mentioned but in their case it's preferable of course to postpone their fasting and start it once they can,,, it's only depend on how hard the traveling is and how much Km they have to travel,,,

Also: I've been reading a lot of 1001 nights recently (I made it to night 101, page 600-something, no Sinbad yet) and as you may have read in my fic where I shamelessly stole it I read about a lot of young people, male and female, described as 'as beautiful as the moon'

AHAahahaha you caught that ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
can't believe that they translated it as it is ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
may i ask what the language you reading with ? just for curiosity
well, my dear this is one of the common expression for the beauty in Arabic language,, you see the moon has many stages and all of them are so important to us,,, it's how we calculate the Arabic months,,, in days 13,14,15 the moon become complete especially in day 14,,, the moon become ASTONISHING seriously you can't just keep yourself from still looking to it,,,, so it's WAY TOO BEAUTIFUL that's why when see some beauty we say it's like the moon (but not any moon but the complete one) many times we even say 'she looks like the Moon of 14' or 'she is the moon of 14' this complete moon called in Arabic = 'badr' or Amar 14 ;D ;D the complete moon refers to the face ,,
well other expressions if you want to know -those expressions are used in literature as well as in our daily talking, by the way-
they describe the beautiful cheek as the peach or the cheek of the peach,, so they say 'she has cheeks like peach' or by the opened beautiful RED rose "she is like an opened rose' or 'her cheeks are like the roses' for the lips they describe them as strawberries, so she has strawberry as her lips or in stead of her lips and 2 peaches in stead of cheeks ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
also the very dark night that is so black is referring to the black hair of a lady you say she has hair dark as the night darkness or as the black night

there are other expressions but those are the most used,, but as you see it's really difficult to use the same expressions in another languge,, i mean they sound funny ;D ,, but for us the Arabians they are not,,, what i want to say is it'll be better to use the beauty expressions of the language you're writing with

N.B this is very important
i have to admit that till now i didn't have chance yet to read the 1001 NIGHTS book because i still haven't it, but i want to tell you something about the beauty in the Arabian world, there is a difference between a man and a woman in beauty EVALUATION AND EXPRESSION,, well i guess for the evaluation we all agree about that all over the world so it's already known,,, but for the expression there are different words or expression to describe a man beauty,, you can't just say he's beautiful this is unacceptable and some men can consider it as insult and non-respect for them,,, you see you can say she is beautiful ( gamila/jamila) you can't say that for a man (gamil/jamil) but we say (wasim) i don't know the exact translation for this word but we say something like 'handsome' may be,,, a man to be like that should has many characters about beauty and others related to his strong and charming personality that are reflected on his appearence,, and there are other measures for his beauty too

OK ONE more thing, then I'll leave off, I promise

ooh please my dear don't say that ,, you're more than welcome honey, so don't say such things,,, and i'm so happy to provide you answers you seek that can be useful for you

Again in 1001 nights it seems that a big part of what makes a beautiful girl incredibly attractive is her higher education. Like, she has to be able to keep up with the best scholars to be really worthy of a good man's praise. So how were these women educated? Was it solely a private, at home thing? Could you hire scholars? Were there schools?

wooooooohhhhhhhhh this a big one ;D ;D
well, first of all in the Arabian time there were no schools as you know them now,,, what i know that the schools were part of the mosque where people (kids/adults) are gathered in circles around the one who teaches them,
about the girls, education is yeah something of course considered from her great advantages because as you see although the stories of 1001NIGHTS were inspired from so many Ancient cultures including the Arabian itself and others like Persians, Indians may be, and may be they went to China too,,, but the author write the events to be happened in his current time which mostly 'd be the Abbasid time (for more info check the first post in this thread ) as it was the bloom time for the Arabian literature and other domains,,,, you can see in this time how people were interest in studying, learning, searching in ALL domains of sciences, philosophy literature,,,, and many so many domains and that what had build their civilisation,,,, so of course in all these circumstances a well educated lady is VERY appreciated,, and it's so recommended to offer the girl this kind of education,,,
of course there were some having private education at home but this need a lot of money and so was limited mostly for the rich people,,, generally girls can go to the mosque as the boys -don't forget that in the mosque there is a very private section for women- they go there and can get their education there,,,, may be also gathered at the teacher house and so on
i should tell you that there were a leading ladies in teaching even before the Abbasid time that adult men and women gathered to learn from her even if it was about religion but point is the teacher is a woman and everyone seek for her great knowledge like Sayda Ayisha & Sayda Nafisa and so on,,,
so if the woman can be great teacher like these and people went to them,, shouldn't the woman learn too and goes herself to education groups at the teacher's house/school in mosque/in privacy at her house may be alone may be with her friends

N.B that also is important,,
i told you everything i myself know,,,, but i'll confirm them to you in few days just to be very accurate and precise

if I can do something in return, just say the word

didn't get what you mean

[MJ]

Thanks so much! It is very enlightening. I'm reading 1001 nights in Dutch, directly translated from Arabic. I've got a very comprehensive version, meaning they went to a LOT of sources to get what was most likely the original story as was told back then. There are a lot of versions that are 'cleaned up' where no one has sex and Christians aren't described as Swine

Quote:
if I can do something in return, just say the word

didn't get what you mean

I meant that I am very grateful for the info and if I can do something for you I would like you to tell me so I can do it

[Eric/Deamus]

MJ,

Aug 1, 2012 9:59:36 GMT -5 MJ said:

Thanks so much! It is very enlightening.

well, you are so welcome

There are a lot of versions that are 'cleaned up' where no one has sex and Christians aren't described as Swine

like what ? ? ? ? ? ? ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but .. i never read a book who describe Christians like that,, never
i mean how come, can't believe it
tell me please about those one and the name of their authors i should know who're they ??
that's ...... i don't know but seem non-sense because simply Christians and the Christian religion and the Christian religious men are very appreciated and respected as well in Islam,, well i can't express in English very well, so how come these men -whoever they are- say such a thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
even the 1001 Nights book as i told and as everyone know was written in the islamic/Arabian ages i mean when people were so adhering to their religion so obviously they can't even think like that, NEVER, it's about the core of Islam, how could they !!
i may found some fanatic people nowadays due to lack of their religion knowledge or their ignorance,, they pretend to know more than the others and better while in fact they don't know anything or they know and change things on their ease,, those ones are ignorants and discusting ,,, but at the time where this book was written IMPOSSIBLE ,,

well for the first part you mentioned in this quote,,, this also CAN'T be in the original copy of the book,,, this is totally forbid so impossible to be mentioned in book in that time ,,, NEVER, so it's not about cleared versions because this simply can't be existing in a book that is most popular and read by everyone in the Arabian world,,,,,, HONEY THIS WAS CALLED TOO AS ISLAMIC AGE MEANS RELIGIOUS,, even if there were people who drink wine or did this, but still know their limits this can't be mentioned in their literature, not to mention the presence of MORE AND MORE other people who were VERY religious and won't let it happen,,, whatever i tell you i can't describe the exact picture really, to let you imagine the situation,,, they would have burnt it totally and there would not have been something called 1001 NIGHTS book after that in our days you'd not been able to read it or we might not even have heard about such a book, ,,,, those people who give up some religious rules looked like many,, because they were the obvious people you notice in the society as rich ones, princes, visirs -again not all of them- ,...... even sometimes the Calipha,,,, but in THE WHOLE ARABIAN WORLD they were too few,, and only to meet by very very caring people to their religion in the other side,,, so how come a book written in this time contains something forbiden by their religions and believes ?

I meant that I am very grateful for the info and if I can do something for you I would like you to tell me so I can do it

again you're so welcome,
and no honey i never can ask things in return,,,, i offer help to my friends and my sisters and it's not for having anything in return,, only want to help anyone want to know anything that i may know,, and i love to share whatever i know with everyone, anything even if not related to Arabian culture, if i figure that i know something that can help i won't hesitate to share with you

[MJ]

I'll reply for real tomorrow (at work now, going to festival later and sleep after) and will tell you who did the collecting and editing.

[MJ]

Tetis, you seemed shocked at the swine comment and the sex. The version I am reading is collected and translated by Richard van Leeuwen.
The specific story in which Christians are refered to as swine is in 'The story of Oemar an-Noe'maan and his sons' incidentally, it's also about his daughter.
There's a whole lot of princess stealing/running away/ dying going on so eventually there's a war basically along religion lines. There also a pretty awesome (if completely ineffectual) witch who fakes whatever religion suits her at the time but of course the brave Muslim princes always get out of the plots she spins.

And the sex well... there's a lot of: And then he went into her. And that's about as tame as you can get. Also some: and then they all jumped naked into the fountain (in mixed company! Shocker!) mostly the sex is marital, sometimes not so much. Also, incest!

But as you said, the stories of 1001 nights aren't all Arabian based, and it is hard to ascertain which stories ever belonged to 1001nights. Some stories have been written down as early as the 10th century!

Hope that helps.

[Eric/Deamus]

@ MJ,
Well MJ, now that you provide me details and more explanation, thanks for your help,,, I made some researches before getting seriously so ill so that I stopped everything then, and I’M SO SORRY to be SO late in replying, and SO SORRY AGAIN that I can’t provide you the proper reply nor my findings about the whole thing,,, I admit I already got a good idea from my researches but still need to do more and compose a suitable answer for it, thing that I’m afraid not been able to do now for I’m still so weak and tired to do such work,,, I’m so sorry again and I excuse you to be more patient with me if you don’t mind.

@ Kriss,
I really apology to you my dear friend that till now I didn’t post the recipe I suggested and promised you,, SO SORRY, please excuse me for being so late but as soon as I being able to do it you’ll get ,, I owe you my dear and I never forget it, please don’t be angry

[MJ]

OMG, I'm so sorry to hear you were ill. Don't apologize, there's no need, just rest and recuperate- take really good care of yourself! I'll send some positive vibes your way

[Eric/Deamus]

@ MJ,
thank you so much for your understanding honey,, thanks so much
*hugs*

[MJ]

So here's me with the questions again! What does a muslim wedding look like?

I've been invited to one by one of my interns. Specifically to come to the henna/women's party and if I could make it, to the actual wedding as well. Any idea what I can expect?
In 1001-nights there's a lot about unveiling the bride, and her having several dresses she changes into throughout the night to show off her beauty (and her father's wealth) but I'm guessing that's a little out-dated.

[Eric/Deamus]

WWWWOOOWWWWWWWW this is a good one this one really good question and BIG one as well

you see the wedding ceremony in Arabia essentially depends on the country, the area inside the country and the time factor so it's complicated a little to tell all things about it but i'll try to sum the main ones especially in big countries and my available knowledge

but of course there are somethings that are critical and unchanged and without them marriage is not counting at all, so mmmmmm, i'll try to answer your question soon as i prepare it

awww, but you 're invited to one that's amazing and you already went to Henna ? impressive,, well yeah Henna now differ from the main ceremony for sure but it wasn't like that -i guess- in older time,,, however there are usually a day specific for girls to celebrate in kinda privacy > what we call Henna but it exists in other countries not essentially by same name,,, and again word "henna" has its reason after all but people now don't keep it as it was and take it as private girls celebration in a way, still some preserve it as it is,,,

anyway the essential ceremony which is coming after is the principal one anyway, or it should be like that because it contains the "KATB EL-KTAB" which is the very critical steps and so on,,,
"unveiling" ...... ??!! well does it mean the bride veil ? don't really get it but there is 2 options for it:
1- either the bride has this transparent white veil, you know everyone used it previously, and after that she makes it back after katb-el-ktab ,,,, i watched in western weddings too very much,,
2- or if the bride is one of those who hide her face normally in daily life,,, you know it's called "nikab" because she believes that what should be a Muslim girl,,, you may find her family kinda of restricted a little and her female relatives like her hiding their faces,,, and they unveil it only when there is no man and in privacy when all surroundings are ladies,,,
by this, there is an option that her groom or i may say here her fiance didn't see her face before ......... so after katb-el-ktab she becomes his wife and she may unveil her face for him ...............

really this is a very old thing !!!!!!!!!! i can't believe there are still some people who do this except if they are very restrictive in religion .... dunno but you get me confused,,,
it also depends on their origin, i mean from which country are they -may i ask- ? this is interesting,,,,, because they may be then from Saudi ,,, Saudiens are very restricted and they may do it that way, though not exactly and that much of restriction because naturally we have critical condition for a marriage that the man should see the lady face and vice versa before either of them decide to say yes,, they even have to talk to each other,,, so i really find it confusing ,,


in Egypt you rarely find this ...... only in the very restricted countryside families in Upper Egypt "El Saayda" ... and the Bedouin families in desert,,, other than those 2 the wedding is so normal, and this exactly what i'll go to explain in my next post,,,

now about the bride getting many dresses to change ;D ;D ;D now this too is very VERY VERY old ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D i can't think of ANYONE do it nowadays ;D ;D but you got a point here, yup it was done before for this reason exactly,,, but ....... what can i say,,, very oldy thing and concepts ;D ;D ;D
no now things aren't like this in anyway,,, actually the weddings are kinda of like the western, but not exactly of course,,, but generally like them you know, oridinary ceremony where everyone is happy and dancing, singing and so on,,, than the bride and groom left for their honeymoon ,,, all of this after katb-el-ktab for sure, then everyone get back home wishing happiness for the just-married couple...... that's it

oh i really hope you enjoy your time there and i'll try to prepare one good answer that sum it better including different times, cultures, countries and so on,,, and for sure the modern one as well,,

[Eric/Deamus]

ohh i just notice you mention 1001 nights ,, oh so sorry i didn't notice it before,,
but now that makes a lot of sense and it fits perfectly with what i said
sorry again, i didn't notice it previously,,

[MJ]

Oh no, I have NOT been to the women's party yet! And I have no idea what to expect other then women and henna. It's a Turkish girl getting married if that helps. I should probably just ask her but she's nervous enough!
I don't know how to dress or what kind of gift to bring... I'm really bad at applying henna, I tried it a couple times but honestly, just give me a ball-point pen and I make some pretty designs but Henna? It gets everywhere!
So... any tips about the henna party?

[Eric/Deamus]

i'm so sorry i didn't reply or answer your question till now MJ, and i'm scared i'm being late and that you already attend the party before me answering your questions but i'll make sure to answer you tonight isA,

[Eric/Deamus]

ok, as i said before it's all depending on place/area or country and time where the celebration takes place.
including the Henna party of course.

For Henna party, it started in the older times to has as aim 2 things i guess: first to take care of the bride and make her beautiful, and of course at those times -and still till now in some countries and area- Henna was one if not the most important item of beauty,

the second reason is to make a celebration private for the ladies and girls with no presence of the men,,, and that's very traditional and i may say religious as well, as it's preferable always to each of the men and women to celebrate separately which is not exactly happening now, however you still find some families still use the separated celebrations as the essential party not as Henna.
in the older times even till within the early 1900 th you 'd still find things like that.
it was not allowed then to have one celebration having men and women together. now it's quite different.

back to Henna party, in Egypt Henna has fame only between certain level of people not all, as they trying to mimic the Khalij fashion - the Khalijians are quite in love with Henna and they apply it in daily life- more than reviving an old tradition, but of course if you asked anyone they'll say it's our old tradition !!!

Henna was very essential step in preparing the bride and it was applied on hair to make it reddish a little in color plus of course applied on hands and feet but not as now, now you'll find people drawing by Henna but in old days there was no drawings just you put your hands and feet in it and they will gain reddish brown color, and don't ask me what's beautiful in that coz i have no idea really, the fact of drawings are applied now is the very prove it's not used as tradition any more but a mimic to the Khalij,,

of course you'll find it as tradition in other Arabian countries, may be like Turkey, i say i don't know much of their traditions so i can't say exactly if they use it as mimic too or they used it like that from the beginning,

back to the party itself, and in Egypt again, i should admit that there was time the Henna party just disappeared and we didn't hear someone do it,,, by since the very last years it comes back to life with big popularity due to economic issues, which will be more clarified in the general post of the wedding,, i had plan to talk about the development and modification in the wedding celebration in general,,

people now think to use it better, and some still use it as girls party while others use as alternative to the essential celebration coz it cost so much less,,, when you went to celebrate a wedding is not like to make a Henna .... and in this type the groom is there too and it's just like the wedding celebration but as i said it costs less,,,

while for those who make it for girls only ........ it's rather like a private family reunion to celebrate the bride, including the female family members, the bride's friends and may be the female neighbours,,
and in this case it's one of those two:
either it's alternative to the engagement celebration ,,, means the bride and groom had been engaged very very privately without any celebration, so the bride to compensate to her family and friends makes the reunion ...
or it's alternative to the wedding celebration as i said before,, after it there will be Katb-el-ktab only and the married couple go to their honeymoon, so it's to compensate for the family and friends to celebrate their bride,,,

some people also say it's Henna part for the groom ,,,, yeah yeah it existed but for sure there is no Henna in the party at all, it's reunion of the groom family and friends, for the same exact reasons i mentioned,,

in the Henna party nowadays there is no much use of the Henna itself other than they bring it with lighted candles and many flowers and i guess the bride touch it or put her fingers in it just for fun, other than that there is the [party itself of singing and dancing .....
but still some people seek to use the henna itself to apply the drawings on their hands, arms ..... actually anywhere,,, but i guess they use professional people to use and draw by henna ,,, i don't think the guests and the people who celebrate do it itself because it needs someone expert to apply it and draw it,,, so you shouldn't worry about it..
still i don't know how Turkish celebrate it exactly,,,

actually it -the henna drawings- becomes a part of the make-up of the bride in any celebration (not only henna party),,, and after that it becomes an option of make-up to any lady or girl before attending parties which prove more that it's just a gesture of mimic not tradition as they say,,

gifts ........ this is difficult to me really to advice you about it,,,, as it depends -i guess- on the people celebrating,, i have no idea how Turkish accept and give gifts in such cases,, so i'm really sorry i can't exactly say anything here except that they may use their own traditions but also accept other countries traditions as well, so i advice you to act normally as if it's an ordinary engagement or wedding party you will go to, and you choose a gift you see normally suitable for the even,,,

hope i could provide suitable answers,,, but i still have to talk about wedding in general in another post,, which will clarify many things,,