Double Trouble

[manche]

And one question, do you think that Omar and Caipra knew each other more personally that they were friends or a sort of it? Yes, she was in his palace at the end of this episode, it could indicate something, but I am still not sure.

And I am not sure if Omar did not really have any different option than attacking Baghdad when "Sinbad" insulted him. Maybe he believed that he had agreed against him together with the Caliph, but Sinbad still could act independently on the wishes of Caliph. Maybe there played a role his wounded pride or he was manipulated by his advisors (I had a feeling that they were not so satisfied with the negotiation about peace). One of them sent Sinbad to Rumina; maybe he even cooperated with her? (Or he could be under the influence some of her spells also)

[tzigone]

And one question, do you think that Omar and Caipra knew each other more personally that they were friends or a sort of it? Yes, she was in his palace at the end of this episode, it could indicate something, but I am still not sure.

I don't think so, because I think she'd have tried talking to him, if they were. And if his brilliant magician friend had told him that an evil sorceress, and not the Caliph's envoy was the one insulting him, he'd logically believe her.

And I am not sure if Omar did not really have any different option than attacking Baghdad when "Sinbad" insulted him. Maybe he believed that he had agreed against him together with the Caliph, but Sinbad still could act independently on the wishes of Caliph.

I'm not sure. It's heavily dependent to me on whether he believed that the Caliph has sent Sinbad to belittle and insult him - that's at least somewhat understandable in the insulting-the-leader-is-insulting-the-kingdom-way. If he didn't think the Caliph was responsible/complicit then he's wholly unjustified (and either way he's going back to youthful hotheadedness).

Maybe there played a role his wounded pride or he was manipulated by his advisors (I had a feeling that they were not so satisfied with the negotiation about peace). One of them sent Sinbad to Rumina; maybe he even cooperated with her? (Or he could be under the influence some of her spells also)

I don't think so. These are not advisers. They're "yes men" - they do small errands and massage his ego. In fact, nothing to me indicated they were advisers. They give no advice. I also don't think that one was either under a spell or working with Rumina. He's just following orders to keep Sinbad happy - the belly dancer said "hey, bet I'd make him happy" and he thought "ooh, good idea." Not really that bright.


I do have two things I want to say first (because I really want feedback on them), and then I'll go pretty chronologically.

1. I haven't seen this idea anywhere, and I apologize in advance if it's been discussed before, but what do you think of Caipra and Dim-Dim being recently married? Maybe he's known her for years and maybe not, but he's know Doubar and Sinbad for over 20 years and if he'd been married that entire time there is no reason that they would not at least know he had a wife. I like the idea that after he was exiled from Baghdad, he went to haven-for-magicians-Basra and fell in love with and married Caipra. You don't have to be 25 to fall in love, right? And then one or both of the had visions regarding Turok/Rumina/Sinbad/Maeve and so he set off to recruit a new apprentice as part of the battle for the greater good.

2. What the heck did Caipra mean by "You will not trick me, as you did my trusting husband, Dim-Dim."? As far as we saw, those two never even met. Did Rumina even know who Dim-Dim was in the first ep? When did she trick him? Did this happen some time between him being blown away by a demon and being held by a force in a land without daffodils? I want to know. Somebody write this fanfic, please!

Now, starting with the first scene: to my shame, I must admit that I was so busy looking for main characters that it took me several viewings to notice the massive amount of magic going on in Basra when Rumina arrives (Maeve even later says Basra is a haven for magicians). And the innkeeper definitely amused me; she deadpanned it in lovely fashion. It's worth noticing that she does not seem to know who Caipra is.

And, by the way, if my sister's Googling led her to the right values, Rumina is way overpaying for that room. In the 760s, 10 drachmas would be over 5 months' pay for an unskilled laborer (in Baghdad, anyway). This is another case of using numbers/currencies the audience can accept more readily.

I like that everyone likes Firouz's game. Too often people belittle his inventions. Even if Rongar is fixing the score.

As I've said before, Sinbad doesn't seem much for the long-term strategy. He's not got any plan for looking for Dim-Dim, but instead seems to just wait for clues. But here we have Maeve thinking longer-term. She’s looking in books and finding people who can help her in the ports they go to. For that matter, taking up the study of magic to enable her to kill Rumina after she's tracked her down is also a long-term plan. A simple plan, but a long-term one.

So the war was before either Doubar or Sinbad was born, and the Sultan has had the obelisk for 30 years, does that mean Doubar is under 30? Give a couple years wiggle-room, since 30 is a round number.

Rumina seems to communicate with Cicero (at least, the conversation about having eaten Sinbad seems that way to me), and Vincenzo communicated with parrots. So do you think communication with animals is the norm for magicians? As a side note; I love her interrogating the cat – I find it quite funny.

Do you think Dermott sensed Caipra's presence ahead of Maeve or just that Caipra mentally invited him? Caipra almost definitely has precognition. But I guess most of it (including the perch for Dermott) could be attributed to Dim-Dim filling her in ahead of time. If she is precognitive, then is her statement about Maeve being the only one who could defeat Rumina based on that ability? That would explain why she didn’t try to take out Rumina when she certainly seemed like she could have trounced her if she’d wanted. Maybe she knew it had to be Maeve?

Did anyone else notice how completely different Caipra looked in the beginning v. in her battle with Rumina? Not only is her clothing style and head-dress completely different, but so is her makeup. Was she trying to blend in on the dingy street, do you think, or did she just decide to don the right clothes for an impressive impression when confronting Rumina?

Okay, Sinbad is usually very bright, but why the heck did he go face an evil sorceress without telling his crew? It's interesting that the crew didn’t think anything of Omar sending a woman for Sinbad's pleasures or of Sinbad accepting. Then again, they’d have seen her whisper in the ear, so wouldn’t peg her for an unwilling participant, someone without a choice in the matter.

The conversation Maeve and Caipra has was interesting. Reading older posts here, I saw someone comment about Maeve's lack of faith in the power of her magic, on how she needed to be encouraged at times. I hadn’t thought of that in the past, but it’s certainly accurate. And after reading that, rewatching the scene just brings it into greater clarity.

Maeve and not-Sinbad. I like her commenting on the room. Blarney stone is way too new for her to be referencing, though. She does not seem at all temped by not-Sinbad to me. Just confused. Like she doesn’t even pick up on a pass at first. Then Rumina kicks it up a notch. Okay, like five notches. But that’s just not how Sinbad behaves, so Maeve reacts as she does. But then she’s not even angry, but still just even more confused. Then she gets knocked around and then Caipra shows up to kick some butt. In a new outfit. Like I said on the other thread, given the peacock motif, I’m considering the idea that she is some flavor of Zoroastrian. Anyone know of any other cults/religions/philosophies in the region that like peacocks?

I love the hug after Sinbad's returned to proper-size. Or, more accurately, I love how they break apart with "wait, how did that happen" sort of attitude. Same thing will happen again later, hmm? But why did Caipra say she didn’t do anything to Sinbad – he saw her?

But the thing at the end with Maeve teasing Sinbad over liking kissing Rumina – I swear those two act like ten year olds sometimes. She doesn’t sound jealous to me (this time), but just childish. I mean, they’re playing the "did not/did too" game.

[Doubar]

Feb 23, 2015 21:54:28 GMT -5 tzigone said:

I don't think so, because I think she'd have tried talking to him, if they were. And if his brilliant magician friend had told him that an evil sorceress, and not the Caliph's envoy was the one insulting him, he'd logically believe her.

Well, to me it seemed like before this ordeal Omar and Caipra didn't really know each other but that afterwards she might even have become an advisor of sorts. Unlike in the beginning she didn't hide anymore but wore her robes openly. Also, she was at the palace to say her goodbye which I think indicates that Omar has been made aware of her help.

And I am not sure if Omar did not really have any different option than attacking Baghdad when "Sinbad" insulted him. Maybe he believed that he had agreed against him together with the Caliph, but Sinbad still could act independently on the wishes of Caliph.

I'm not sure. It's heavily dependent to me on whether he believed that the Caliph has sent Sinbad to belittle and insult him - that's at least somewhat understandable in the insulting-the-leader-is-insulting-the-kingdom-way. If he didn't think the Caliph was responsible/complicit then he's wholly unjustified (and either way he's going back to youthful hotheadedness).

Aye, that's exactly how I'd interpret it. Sinbad was an embassador in this case and if he insults Omar it is pretty much the same as if the Caliph had done that himself. Considering the two have obviously been at war for too many years it is not surprising that Omar jumps to conclusions (especially since, like in any country around the world, there certainly were voices that didn't approve of the established peace and were very happy to take Sinbad's misbehaviour seriously).

1. I haven't seen this idea anywhere, and I apologize in advance if it's been discussed before, but what do you think of Caipra and Dim-Dim being recently married?

Awww, I actually like this idea. It's really sweet! In our play we have settled for the long-term marriage though even if that doesn't explain why he never mentioned his wife to either Sinbad or Maeve. In that regard, I think, we've somewhat adopted the show's spirit in that some things just don't make sense. >.>

What the heck did Caipra mean by "You will not trick me, as you did my trusting husband, Dim-Dim."?

I do think that whatever happened there, took place long before DimDim was cursed by the demon. Turok and DimDim seem to have met before so it doesn't seem too far off to assume that Rumina was nearby somewhere. In hindsight, taking the family history into account, Rumina could have tricked DimDim into believing she wanted to learn the white arts but was secretly spying on DimDim so that Turok learned of his ways and possible weaknesses. It's just an idea though.

In the 760s, 10 drachmas would be over 5 months' pay for an unskilled laborer (in Baghdad, anyway). This is another case of using numbers/currencies the audience can accept more readily.

Yup, but then again - I cannot blame them for not expecting fans to put that much effort into researching the historical background of it all. And you know, from a show that tells an Arabian tale with a cast of very white people I don't really expect too much. It's all good fun, but far from realistic.

I like that everyone likes Firouz's game. Too often people belittle his inventions. Even if Rongar is fixing the score.

Same here. Poor Firouz and his inventions get ignored way too often. It was nice to see the crew appreciate his work like this.

As for Sinbad having no real plan while Maeve does think in long-term strategies, now that's true indeed.

So the war was before either Doubar or Sinbad was born, and the Sultan has had the obelisk for 30 years, does that mean Doubar is under 30? Give a couple years wiggle-room, since 30 is a round number.

*snortgiggles* If that is so, Doubar is definitely unlucky with his looks. xD

Rumina seems to communicate with Cicero (at least, the conversation about having eaten Sinbad seems that way to me), and Vincenzo communicated with parrots. So do you think communication with animals is the norm for magicians? As a side note; I love her interrogating the cat – I find it quite funny.

I wouldn't see it as a general ability but it certainly seems like magicians are possibly more receptive when it comes to animals. Cicero though I always kind of thought was a past lover of Rumina who she turned into a pet.

Do you think Dermott sensed Caipra's presence ahead of Maeve or just that Caipra mentally invited him? Caipra almost definitely has precognition. But I guess most of it (including the perch for Dermott) could be attributed to Dim-Dim filling her in ahead of time. If she is precognitive, then is her statement about Maeve being the only one who could defeat Rumina based on that ability? That would explain why she didn’t try to take out Rumina when she certainly seemed like she could have trounced her if she’d wanted. Maybe she knew it had to be Maeve?

If you ask me, it's a little bit of both. Caipra possibly invited him but Dermott must have been able to receive that call as well. So in my eyes it's a two-sided thing.
And about any precognition abilities: while there was never any real statement, to me it seemed she did have knowledge about the future. And didn't Maeve also mention that in her text about Caipra?

Did anyone else notice how completely different Caipra looked in the beginning v. in her battle with Rumina? Not only is her clothing style and head-dress completely different, but so is her makeup. Was she trying to blend in on the dingy street, do you think, or did she just decide to don the right clothes for an impressive impression when confronting Rumina?

Considering that apart from the very beginning she constantly wore her silver/purple robes throughout the ep I would say this is her normal outfit, so to say, and that in the streets she deliberated wanted to blend in.

Okay, Sinbad is usually very bright, but why the heck did he go face an evil sorceress without telling his crew?

Because he's a bit full of himself and thinks he can handle this alright.

Reading older posts here, I saw someone comment about Maeve's lack of faith in the power of her magic, on how she needed to be encouraged at times. I hadn’t thought of that in the past, but it’s certainly accurate. And after reading that, rewatching the scene just brings it into greater clarity.

I think it was our Maeve who laid emphasis on this concept and it does fit well with everything we've seen in the show.

Anyone know of any other cults/religions/philosophies in the region that like peacocks?

I'm afraid I don't.

I love the hug after Sinbad's returned to proper-size. Or, more accurately, I love how they break apart with "wait, how did that happen" sort of attitude. Same thing will happen again later, hmm? But why did Caipra say she didn’t do anything to Sinbad – he saw her?

Oh, I think she didn't say it for Sinbad's benefit but rather for Maeve's. Of course Sinbad knows that Caipra helped, but she doesn't want Maeve to be too aware of that. Their whole talk earlier was about Maeve needing to trust in herself and her powers, so by denying she helped she is trying to achieve just that.
The hug though: yeah, that one is priceless!

But the thing at the end with Maeve teasing Sinbad over liking kissing Rumina – I swear those two act like ten year olds sometimes. She doesn’t sound jealous to me (this time), but just childish. I mean, they’re playing the "did not/did too" game.

You won't hear me disagree. Those two were like kids in this shot and Maeve simply enjoyed teasing him.

[tzigone]

Yup, but then again - I cannot blame them for not expecting fans to put that much effort into researching the historical background of it all.

In 2015, it's a few minutes on Google (admittedly we were already somewhat familiar with the monetary units from looking up things previously; it's sort of a hobby with us). In 1996, a bit of a different story. I had Internet then, but not nearly as much familiarity with searching online and I'm not sure how the number of sources compared, but we didn't have the Google books extracts or anything.

And you know, from a show that tells an Arabian tale with a cast of very white people I don't really expect too much. It's all good fun, but far from realistic.

Absolutely true. And I really don't mind the blatant historical inaccuracies a bit (I wouldn't like a historically accurate tale). I just enjoy noticing what they are. It's part of the fun for me.

Considering that apart from the very beginning she constantly wore her silver/purple robes throughout the ep I would say this is her normal outfit, so to say, and that in the streets she deliberated wanted to blend in/

I tend to agree, but she only had three scenes, didn't she? One talk with Maeve, one conflict with Rumina/fix for Sinbad, and the goodbye?

Oh, I think she didn't say it for Sinbad's benefit but rather for Maeve's. Of course Sinbad knows that Caipra helped, but she doesn't want Maeve to be too aware of that.

Have I gotten myself confused? I thought Sinbad specifically waited until Maeve had already left to thank Caipra and then Caipra said it was all Maeve? That's why I didn't why she said it; Maeve wasn't there, so it wasn't for her sake and Sinbad saw what happened. Did I get mixed up?

[Doubar]

No, you didn't get it mixed up. But I always figured that Maeve'd still be in hearing-range which was why Caipra denied having helped in this. *shrugs*

As for our modern means of seeking information: actually, that was exactly what I was thinking about. Today, it's so easy for us to find information and not even leave our desk. I remember, our first computer we got in 1998 and even then I didn't find it very useful in terms of researching. Actually, it wasn't until the early 2000s that thanks to Wikipedia and the likes it began to make sense to me to search online. So, taking this into account I can't really blame those old shows for not spending hours on researching historical backgrounds and details and the likes.

Absolutely true. And I really don't mind the blatant historical inaccuracies a bit (I wouldn't like a historically accurate tale). I just enjoy noticing what they are. It's part of the fun for me.

Now that is true indeed. After all, it is fun to discuss all those little (or bigger) inaccuracies. ^^

I tend to agree, but she only had three scenes, didn't she? One talk with Maeve, one conflict with Rumina/fix for Sinbad, and the goodbye?

Yep, still that's three scenes (spanning at least two days, since I doubt the crew departed right after the incident) in her robes against one scene in the simple clothing. Any statistician would laugh at this, but it's all that we got.

[tzigone]

But I always figured that Maeve'd still be in hearing-range which was why Caipra denied having helped in this. *shrugs*

But that would negate that Sinbad waited until Maeve was gone to thank Caipra - which I think he specifically did so that Maeve wouldn't know she didn't do the unshrinking. That could be me projecting, though.

Yep, still that's three scenes (spanning at least two days, since I doubt the crew departed right after the incident) in her robes against one scene in the simple clothing. Any statistician would laugh at this, but it's all that we got.

I'd call it two scenes in robes against one in simple clothing, as the fight with Rumina (well, hardly a fight; Caipra trounced her) and the unshriking followup take place back-to-back with no time to change clothes. Also, Omar is still in the same outfit at the end as he was in when Rumina was discovered, too. I mean, I agree that I think the peacock motif is more routine for her, but that does indicate it might be intended to be the same day.  So completely agree that the peacock outfit is more of what she'd normally wear, etc. I just don't think the in-show evidence is really there to prove it.  However, thematically, it's definitely presented that way.  It's sort of a reveal. She was a cryptic speaker before, but then she showed up in dramatic fashion and showed what kind of woman Dim-Dim was talking about in those journals.  And I do think the innkeeper not recognizing her/her level of power is a good indicator of that.

[manche]

Feb 28, 2015 13:41:50 GMT -5 Doubar said:

No, you didn't get it mixed up. But I always figured that Maeve'd still be in hearing-range which was why Caipra denied having helped in this. *shrugs*

Or we can speculate that Caipra wanted from Sinbad to believe in the magic of Maeve as well (the support of her closests would help her to believe in her magic as well) and she did not want to create something as doubts in his mind. Moreover, she helped Maeve but I have no doubts that Maeve had her share in breaking of this spell as well.

[tzigone]

Feb 28, 2015 14:14:49 GMT -5 manche said:

Or we can speculate that Caipra wanted from Sinbad to believe in the magic of Maeve as well (the support of her closests would help her to believe in her magic as well) and she did not want to create something as doubts in his mind. Moreover, she helped Maeve but I have no doubts that Maeve had her share in breaking of this spell as well.

Well, I think it's indisputable Maeve did part of it (the light came from Maeve's hand).  But I can't agree that she was trying to avoid doubts in Sinbad's mind.  She didn't put forth any effort to convince him or try to alter his belief, really.  She just brushed it off.  Plus she said "I did nothing.  It was all Maeve." which, from an audience perspective, is just blatantly false.  More importantly, it's false from Sinbad's perspective and she can't reasonably expect him to actually believe that.  I think I'll just take it as a sideways way of saying "don't mention it" even if it seems an awkward way of saying it.

edit: On rewatching; the light did only come from Maeve's hand so now I'm wondering how exactly Cairpra's part actually does play in.  While I don't think it the case, I do actually think it arguable that it was all Maeve.  Amazing how perceptions can change.

[Doubar]

Tzigone: Hm, but re-watching the scene to me it seems more like Maeve is rushing out, Sinbad's all flustered and then remembers that maybe a thanks is in order so he turns around and thanks Caipra for what he thinks she did.

If she truly did anything at all though, I guess we'll never know. The light is indeed coming from Maeve's hand only though that doesn't mean that Caipra didn't help at all. Because when you look at how she freed Maeve from Rumina's spell - there's no light coming from her hands either and yet she is "healing" the sorceress. Thus we can assume that not all her magic goes together with a display of light (unless we want to state that her hands glowed in the very moment the camera switched back to capture Maeve), and in view of this it seems perfectly possible that Caipra did help in breaking the spell on Sinbad.

Or we can speculate that Caipra wanted from Sinbad to believe in the magic of Maeve as well (the support of her closests would help her to believe in her magic as well) and she did not want to create something as doubts in his mind. Moreover, she helped Maeve but I have no doubts that Maeve had her share in breaking of this spell as well.

To be honest, I can actually see that as a motif for why she shrugged it all off the way she did. If she helped at all, I think her power was more of a supportive kind - in a way that she lent Maeve that final spark she needed to get the curing spell going - and she'd both, brush that off and want to have Sinbad trust in the redhead, too.

I just don't think the in-show evidence is really there to prove it. However, thematically, it's definitely presented that way.

I agree with you. The in-show evidence is rather meagre though I felt like Omar's clothes were something ceremonial of sorts which would mean he may well be wearing them rather often. In any case, the whole chasing after the false Sinbad, the freeing the real one from the spell and then capturing Rumina must have taken the bigger part of the day and it wouldn't seem likely to me that the ship leaves port in the late evening or night. Which is why I figured that Caipra must have worn the robes on at least two days as opposed to the one morning we saw her in the simple clothing. On the other hand are you right indeed when saying that we have to regard two of the three scenes wich was present with the peacock motif as one since they are in direct relation to each other.

[manche]

Does anyone consider to be funny that Rongar was the only member of the crew whose name Rumina did not remember and she called him the Baldy instead of it? I do not know exactly why, but it seemed to be quite funny how she called him during the fight with these guards.

[manche]

Apr 23, 2013 9:33:32 GMT -5 manche said:

Apr 23, 2013 7:28:50 GMT -5 Doubar said:

I have absolutely NO idea! xP It wasn't logical at all for Rumina to try seducing Maeve. But I will list it as attempted fanservice to both female and male watchers. *shrugs* >.>

It could be a new trick of Rumina. She wanted to beguile her for the case that the Omar's guards would find them. A small help would be useful ( a silly explanation is better than none).

Or it was only the play for the Rumina's joy. She probably hoped that Maeve admits some feelings for Sinbad. After this she probably wanted to changed into her true form and killed her with words: "It is nice, but you have never got the opportunity to say it to him."

Although the attempt of Rumina to seduce Maeve is really a little strange, I must say that I always liked how Zen played this scene and how Jacqueline reacted to it. She seemed to be tempted to kiss him as well but she quickly realized that Sinbad would never behave like this.