Hell House

[Doubar]

I just happened to watch this lovely ep again and have to say I almost had my jaw drop at how well it brings S1 and S2 together. And at how they adress the Sinbad/Maeve relationship. O.o
I knew I had always loved this ep. It was the one thing that somehow paid me off for watching S2 because even though it was no real Happy Ending it still admited some things. Only the same have never been that clear to me as they are now.

When Mala says that it's "okay to hurt" and that "sometimes when we lose someone we love we pretend not to hurt, we pretend we're too tough to care, till eventually we forget we're pretending" ... I totally forget about how obvious that is! I must admit that till now I always thought that S2 never really addressed their relationship properly but I have to realize now that this was only due to me not having watched that ep for a too long time. And Sinbad's facial expressions as Mala talks to him - you can see the inner struggle there. And when she then asks him if Maeve was his wife and he says they care about each other... a lot... We wouldn't expect him to tell a stranger the story of a lost love anyway, so having Sinbad say those words is really a confession. Plus, wow, he chooses Maeve over his crew... all these things are so amazing.
Never before did it occur to me this clearly that Hell House was really to make AoS be again what it once was. What Ed Naha wanted it to be. He did want the story to be consistent, he did want to add depth to the characters. And even though he later denied a romance between Sinbad and Maeve, with this ep he reveals that they were in love. And that Sinbad never really stopped loving and mourning her. And what is even more astonishing to me is that it reveals that all what we do here, at the board with the play, is in fact right. The S2 Sinbad obviously is not the Sinbad Naha wanted. He wanted bits of the S1 Sinbad back (and we know that thanx to another interview) and he obviously chose to explain the changes in the captain with stating that they're due to the hurt he so desperately tries to suppress in S2 [which is just what we settled on, too. ].

Aw, gosh, sorry for this lame post as it's most likely nothing new to you, but to me watching it again yesterday was like an epiphany. *blush*
And for some reason I now believe that - apart from the alien watchers thing - I would maybe even have liked the S3 they were to make.

[Fireland]

I don't find your message lame, it makes me happy to read you. To feel I'm not the only one getting all excited because I can reconciliate both seasons ! I still haven't found the courage to watch S2 except for Hell House, and I feel it's pretty much the essential episode I needed to watch.

I was surprised at how, only from my feelings and some foreign memories what Mala said was exactly what I thought happened to Sinbad, to his heart, to explain why he changed. I was happy to read that it was the interpretation you had come up to, as well !

[banmaixanh]

Feb 16, 2012 12:39:13 GMT -5 Doubar said:

"sometimes when we lose someone we love we pretend not to hurt, we pretend we're too tough to care, till eventually we forget we're pretending"

I love this scene. It told me how much Sinbad was hurt and why he changed so much after Maeve's disappearance. It's also like an explanation why Sinbad hadn't seemed to hurt before. It's not because he didn't care for Maeve, but he pretended that he wasn't hurt. I agree with you that even the season two is the negation of that romantic relationship the ending still tells us something. I love how Sinbad said to Mala when she asked him if Maeve was his wife. He didn’t go there to meet her. He risked his life just to make sure that she was safe. Even she wasn’t there, even he couldn’t meet her, all he wanted was knowing that she was safe. I don’t know if you have the same feeling with me because in Vietnamese, Sinbad said, “she must be safe, and I just want to make sure she is” I think it doesn't mean like that in English. The two meanings are alike but the love in those words is much stronger than in English version. I love watching this ep in Vietnamese because it shows very clearly the feeling of Sinbad for Maeve and Bryn. It shows me that Sinbad loves Maeve and her only by the personal pronoun Sinbad use to call Maeve. When all crews called Maeve and Bryn by the same pronoun, Sinbad called Maeve by another pronoun which he used to call her only. All other women he called by the other pronouns, include Bryn. The way he called Maeve at the opening of the hell house is full of love. It’s really beautiful when he called her like that. He didn’t call her like that first but started to call her like that after their kiss. Oh, I can tell you that in Vietnam you hardly find someone to tell you that they’re not in love.

However I don't like that ep much. I don't see hell house as a bad ep, or I can say it's a good one and a beautiful ending with the hero of the sea continued his long journey finding his lost love even that women had maybe died in that storm. It's a beautiful and painful love. But the reason makes me don’t like that ep is the way the producers did with other 20 eps (not include the sacrifice) of the season 2. It told me that Sinbad didn’t love Maeve as much as he should to act like what he acted in the hell house. But of course with what I saw in hell house, he surely still loves her. When I watched this ep again in Vietnamese months ago, I decided to change my story line and gave him a chance to be happy with his love. All my fanvids say that. ;D

I have a question: Do any of you know why Mala is that strong? Who is she? Just a simple sorceress?

[Fireland]

@ Ban. I agree with you ! But I'm not sure what you mean when you said ''the personal pronoun he uses to call Maeve'' ? The way he talks about her (how sweetly and softly he pronounces her name) or the way he talks to her, vs. how he talks to other girls ? What other pronouns does he use talking to them ? Maybe there are words or pronouns in vietnamese that aren't used in english (or french) that show how close a person is to you ?

In english, he says ''she went into hiding'' to explain why she was gone, and when Mala asked him if it was to hide from dark forces, he said ''she's supposed to be safe. I just want to make sure she is''. I think the meaning is pretty much the same with the vietnamese dubbig. He hopes what DimDim told him was right, but part of him worries about her and wants to make sure she is out of danger, since Scratch pretends he keeps her as a prisoner in the hell house. I really love his reaction when Mala asked him ''you really miss her, don't you?''. His eyes looking away, how he chooses not to answer her question ... it's screaming pain to me.

About Mala I don't know why she is so powerful, but I believe she could be a water elemental. I don't know if it's the case, but it was my feeling watching this ep

[Rongar]

Truly, not much is known about Mala; except that she is Sinbad and Doubar's mother who died when Sinbad was 2. She drowned at sea.

I'm not completely sure if its canon or fanon, but Scratch apparantly caused the storm in an effort to get Sinbad's soul even at that early age. He tempted Doubar, who held onto Sinbad during the storm, on a piece of driftwood, to let Sinbad die at sea; to go on ahead and save himself, but Doubar held firm and kept Sinbad safe.

I don't think she was a sorceress...I think her powers are related to how she died...I could be totally wrong, but there it is.

[Doubar]

@fire: Awww, thanx, dear. I'm so happy as well to see I'm not the only one who feels like this, and to whom this is actually something special.
I guess Hell House is really the essential ep to watch, although personally I would also recommend you Ali Rashid and the Prince as it sheds to much light on Rongar's past. Oh, and A city under Plague is actually rather nice - we get to see Firouz' girlfriend there. They are so cute together! ;D
Plus, in the latter there's not even any Sinbad-random-girl-fling-kind of thing so that's really rather nice to watch.

Anyhow. Right, somewhere in my mind I did recall that the ep kind of made up for S2, only I didn't remember just how much it really referred to S1 and how much it really confessed.

@ban: Awwww, really? He uses a different pronoun for Maeve? Even after all this time? How sweet is that! Unfortunately, in our language, something like that doesn't exist, but still you can tell from his body language and voice (and the dubbing did as great as Zen there!) what Maeve really means to him. *loves that*
But, yeah, you summed it up just right. And you know, I had half thought that only we fans had decided on the Sinbad-had-just-hurt scenario in order to explain the events of S2, but when I yesterday realized that this was actually NOT fanmade but the official explanation as well, I got real amazed and excited about it all. :3

Aha, and as for Mala: Just like Rongs said, in the show we have been given nothing but the information that she is the brothers' mother and that she died at sea in a storm that Scratch obviously at summoned. He had tempted Doubar back then to abandon baby-Sinbad, but Doubar didn't listen to him and saved both himself and his little brother. However, that's all we got to know. Oh, and of course that Mala came back to this world because Sinbad was in danger (-> at risk of getting lost to the dark side).

So, yeah, it's not clear but personally, just like Rongs, I, too, don't think that she was a sorceress. I believe she was just a simple woman whose love for her children kept her spirit bound to the world of the living and made her become a ghostly guardian. But due to the circumstances of her death I assume her spirit somehow melted into the element it rested in for so long which is how she got to have those powers. And in that regard, I'd go with Fire in saying that she could be something like an water elemental.

And, just in case, you're interested: here's the bio I wrote for her:
distandlands.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intro&action=display&thread=125&page=1

I made sure to stay as true to the series as I could and thus have a bio that could actually be her real background story.

@fire (again, hehe):

I really love his reaction when Mala asked him ''you really miss her, don't you?''. His eyes looking away, how he chooses not to answer her question ... it's screaming pain to me.

Awww, I so love that as well!!!! Zen's acting is amazing there, because yes, all of Sinbad's feeling are conveyed in this one moment in which he cannot answer to Mala.

And on the water elemental: aha, yeah, that was roughly my idea as well (see reply to Ban and bio ).

@rongs: No, actually all what you mentioned, is canon. I think Doubar told the story in Conundrum (such a sad story it is btw ).

[banmaixanh]

Feb 17, 2012 12:27:46 GMT -5 Fireland said:

@ Ban. I agree with you ! But I'm not sure what you mean when you said ''the personal pronoun he uses to call Maeve'' ?

Uhm, it's the difference between the way he talks to her and the way he talks to other girls.

What other pronouns does he use talking to them ? Maybe there are words or pronouns in vietnamese that aren't used in english (or french) that show how close a person is to you ?

Yes, in Vietnamese, we have a personal pronoun system with a lot of pronouns. We use the different pronouns when we talk to the different people such as the way I call you in Vietnamese must be different with how I call a person who is younger than me. It shows the relationship of two people by how they call each other and how close they're. And there are the couple pronouns which don't show clearly that two people are in love if they call each other like that because the men also call their little sister or a friend who is younger than them like that to show their relationship. However, if a man calls only one woman that way. It clearly means he loves her and if the woman calls herself by the word the man use to call her (the word she didn't use to call herself before in talking with him) it means she loves him. In AOS, Maeve is of course not Sinbad's little sister, and we don't know if she is younger than him, and the most important thing is they hadn't used those words to call each other at the first place and Sinbad called only one woman like that, and she is Maeve. The word Sinbad call Maeve in Vietnamese isn't very special but compare with the words he use to call other women, the way he call Maeve is very sweet.

In english, he says ''she went into hiding'' to explain why she was gone, and when Mala asked him if it was to hide from dark forces, he said ''she's supposed to be safe. I just want to make sure she is''. I think the meaning is pretty much the same with the vietnamese dubbig.

Yes, the meanings of original words and the translation aren't much different. The difference is the Vietnamese words the translator use. It said out loud that all Sinbad need was Maeve was safe. He didn't care about himself. He didn't care how hurt he would be if he couldn't meet her, if this was only a trap. He just needed to know that she was safe. I can well see his sacrifice for his love. He was ready to do anything for her even it hurt him very bad when he could not be with her but the importance with him was her safety not that she was with him. In English "she's supposed to be safe" when it is translated into Vietnamese it have more than just one meaning and the different words you chose to translate will bring the different emotion to the sentence. It's very hard to explain it because Vietnamese is very difficult to understand. One word you can understand it a lot of ways. The word in Vietnamese is never excessive. Each word has its own meaning and somehow different with its synonym.

I really love his reaction when Mala asked him ''you really miss her, don't you?''. His eyes looking away, how he chooses not to answer her question ... it's screaming pain to me.

I love that reaction of him too. I think it's like "the silent is the agreement". He missed her terribly but he was hurt too bad to say that word out loud.

About Mala I don't know why she is so powerful, but I believe she could be a water elemental.

I believe it too but I wonder that if she is just a sorceress. I don't think a simple sorceress can be that strong when we saw what happened with Rumina already. With me it sounds like she is the sea's genius.

Mala:

I think her powers are related to how she died.

I thought like that at first but when I watched it again I don't think so because of her dress. The way Doubar told about her dress already tells something about her. But it's maybe my feeling only. I often focus on the detail. With me, a small detail also can tell something very special.

@doubar:

And you know, I had half thought that only we fans had decided on the Sinbad-had-just-hurt scenario in order to explain the events of S2, but when I yesterday realized that this was actually NOT fanmade but the official explanation as well

That's what made me confuse before. I saw some of you said that fan thought that Sinbad's change because of Maeve's disappearance and I don't know why when I believe that because Mala told me that. ;D

[Fireland]

@ Ban : thanks for the explanations ! It's so sweet the vietnamese dubbing chose to use that pronoun to talk about Maeve. Even if it's somehow interpretating their relationship more than the original version, it still feels true. The other women are flings, past love interests or just pretty women he can't help but flirt with. While Maeve truly was someone special to him, so it's nice they decided he would call her that way. I wondered : what about Bryn ? If he has a friendly sister-like relationship with her, does he use the same pronoun when he talks about her ?

@ Doubar: About the water elemental, I just think it could make sense since Bryn's mother, according to Ed Naha's interview I think, was herself some pacific elemental. So I thought, if elementals can have human babys with some magical abilities (we saw in Little Miss Magic that Sinbad had some, and his rainbow bracelet tells us there is something there too), then it could be possible for Mala to have been one, too. Or to become one after her death. Though there must be a reason why Scratch chose to kill them. When was it I saw or heard Scratch tried to kill him as a baby because he was a threat to him ? Was it in Hell House ? Anyhow ... I guess Mala or her son were powerful enough for Scratch to want to see them dead.

And about Zen's acting when Mala asks him if he misses her. The open-closed mouth is what I love most. It just says everything, like Ban said. The silence that screams the truth, hehe.

And thank you for the ep suggestions, I will watch them

[Rongar]

Fireland, In 'Little Miss Magic' Sinbad did use the stones...which gives a hint that he might have a magical/elemental spark in him, but the bracelet in Ed's mind wasn't magical at all; it was technological, so I don't know about the bracelet showing his magical skill.

Fanfic wise, yea, most if not all of us think of the bracelets as magical...which in turns leads me to ask, as a side note since it isn't related to Hell House...does that mean that Tetsu has magic too???

[Fireland]

I thought of the bracelet more of a connexion to magic. For example, letting aside the aliens and all, that we learned after the seasons ended by Ed Naha, what we were told in season 1 (ans season 2 with Bryn) was that they each got in a storm of some sort, woke up safe on an island not remembering how they got there and wearing the same bracelet. That sometimes glowed. And that DimDim said, in Return of Sinbad, that ''everything's got a reason'', pointing at the rainbow bracelet.

Now, of course it baffled me when I read that interview. But before I read it, it was clear to me that the bracelet was linked to magic, maybe in itself, maybe as a sign some magical entity, the same who had saved Sinbad, had saved Tetsu, Bryn, etc. I even thought at some point that it was DimDim who saved them.

[banmaixanh]

Feb 17, 2012 23:20:03 GMT -5 Fireland said:

@ Ban I wondered : what about Bryn ? If he has a friendly sister-like relationship with her, does he use the same pronoun when he talks about her ?

No, He didn't. He just called her like he called other women. At the end of hell house Bryn approached Sinbad to ask if he was ok. I thought he would call himself as he called himself when he talked to Maeve. I had already been angry before he opened his mouth because I had knew what he would do next. But actually, he didn't call himself like that. It really surprised me and it caused the huge smile on my face that moment. I know some of you often wonder what Sinbad's action at that scene means. And in Vietnamese, it also could be a big question if they let Sinbad use the same pronouns in talking to two closest women in his life. But they didn't let Sinbad do it, the pronouns he used to talk to Maeve he uses to talk to her only. It means there is nothing between him and Bryn. That's why I like watching hell house in Vietnamese. Actually, the translator didn't use those pronouns for Maeve and Sinbad when I was young. They didn't differentiate Maeve with other women in Sinbad's life, but then I don't know from when they changed it. The first time I heard Sinbad called Maeve like that my blood turned cold (it's just too sweet) and broke into laughter (because I didn't use to it) but then I just only smile. I agree that if someone don't know English, the translation can make him misunderstand the relationship between them, but somehow I believe that the translators changed the pronouns also for that purpose. They want the audiences to believe that Sinbad loves Maeve. I often joke that the new translators are also Maeve's fans. ;D

[Doubar]

@ban: Wow, Vietnamese is really complicated. O.O But soooo sweet, too. And I agree: the translaters did make it all be more obvious then, than the actual show was, but on the other hand... it's not like they made it up after all. It was all really given and thus sooooo sweet of them to emphasize on it.

I thought like that at first but when I watched it again I don't think so because of her dress. The way Doubar told about her dress already tells something about her. But it's maybe my feeling only. I often focus on the detail. With me, a small detail also can tell something very special.

Hm, you got a point there, yes. It confused me for a little while as well. But then I decided that it just shows her sensitive nature and her love for the world and life itself. In fact, I even think both these attributes to be very important for what happened afterwards, and believe that the sense for what is right and what is wrong, along with the love he encountered (and which lived on with Doubar) is what made Sinbad be so special for the world. Because in him the loving heart (Doubar + Mala), the sense for justice (Mala) and the strength to stand up for what he believes in (which I suppose he inherited from his father) unite which again makes him such a valuable soul for the bright forces. But that's just my interpretation, really.

That's what made me confuse before. I saw some of you said that fan thought that Sinbad's change because of Maeve's disappearance and I don't know why when I believe that because Mala told me that. ;D

;D ;D ;D

Hey, and slightly random: but in that long part in which you explained Fire the stuff about your language... do you realize that your language skills have improved greatly, dear? Or at least I feel so. Congrats, sweetheart!

@fire: I think it's mentioned in S1 Conundrum that Scratch tried to kill Sinbad. They don't necessarily know yet that it was Scratch per se, but Doubar tells the story of how their parents died and how a dark voice was constantly telling him to let go of the baby and safe his own life instead - which of course Doubar refused to do. So, yeah, Sinbad is very important to the world. Although, personally I think I got influenced by Naha's original idea (not the alien-part of it though), saying that the bracelets are given to those who are important for the world and in particular the good ones. So I really guess it might be more a question of their moral strength and the strength of their hearts that made them be so dangerous for Scratch. Although, of course, yes, you never know... magic could be involved as well.
Anyhow though, I do understand well why you think Mala could be a water elemental and my own theory matches what you mentioned: that she became one after her death and during the time in which her soul was sort of imprisoned in the seas.

And about Zen's acting when Mala asks him if he misses her. The open-closed mouth is what I love most. It just says everything, like Ban said. The silence that screams the truth, hehe.

Aye, just that one! It's awesome and betrays so much! I really love it, too.

Aw, and you're welcome. Although, of course it must be Ali Rashid and the Thieves (not the Prince). lol. Sorry for that one. It was late already. xD
Oh, and actually I forgot about another: The Beast of Basra. There's no fling-thing either, but a lot of S/D brotherhood. In my eyes it's also one of the darkest stories though, but you might want to try it if you want.

Mala: Hmm... somehow I cannot picture Tetsu having real magic. But then again, I cannot really imagine Sinbad having real magic either. So maybe it would more like a weak affinity, and access to magic if you will. Like, he, too, would have been able to use Serendib's stones but both aren't able to 'create' something magical themselves. Just a suggestion. ^^

@fire:

I even thought at some point that it was DimDim who saved them.

Wheeee, that's my favo explanation , really, and I think it's also the best established one in the fandom (even we, here at the board, use it for the story).

[banmaixanh]

Feb 18, 2012 3:22:36 GMT -5 Doubar said:

@ban: Wow, Vietnamese is really complicated. O.O

That's why I often give the foreigners who study Vietnamese the understanding smile.

About Mala, well, I can only say that your explanation here is very lovely and logical. That's how I explain the importance of Sinbad to the world. I don't think Sinbad had magic inside him. He is important because of the endless love in his heart. The love is the strongest magic in this world. I just forgot that principle. Mala is a mother and the love of a mother for her children cannot be measured. I agree with you about her strength. It’s her love for her sons.

Hey, and slightly random: but in that long part in which you explained Fire the stuff about your language... do you realize that your language skills have improved greatly, dear? Or at least I feel so. Congrats, sweetheart!

Oh!!!! *blush* Thank you. I really don’t know if my language skills have improved or not. I often do the test but then forget the result of the test right after I receive it because “just a test, it says nothing” or “maybe I’m lucky this time”.

[Fireland]

Well I do understand you very well when you write. And I myself make a lot a mistakes because I'm not used to writing in english anymore. Basically, I am pretty much bilingual when it comes to ''listening'' to english (either on TV, on the radio, or listening to a conversation when the accents are not too heavy (ex.: I don't think I could understand Australian people that well ... a heavy british accent could be challenging, too). Then it's from reading, even though most of what I study is in french. Then for writing and speaking, it's more difficult for me. I quickly improve my english accent when I get to travel out of Québec and in an english-speaking environment. But other than that, I have this huge, chopped, Quebecer accent that I find really awful. And when I try to speak, I get how it's supposed to sound in my head, but it doesn't sound like that when I say it *lol* The same when it comes to writing. I try to remember how the texts I've read are structured, try to remember some of the vocabulary I've seen, in order to build my own texts. But my grammar lessons are years behind me.

@ Doubar : Thanks. I think I've actually watched more episodes from s2 than I initially thought. I mean, I do remember the Sacrifice, I remember the one with the baby they had to rescue, the one where dolls become animated at night, the Hell House of course, the alien spaceship, I definately watched part of it ... I thought I had stopped watching AoS when Maeve wasn't around, but I think I rather stopped watching the show on a regular basis, catching some eps from time to time whenever it would be on and I had nothing else to watch So it's not that bad, that would altogether represent almost half of the season with the ones you're suggesting, hehe !

[banmaixanh]

If I told you that I have never written anything by English will you believe? (not here of course) But it's the trust. I've never written anything by English. I didn't learn writing or I wasn't taught how to use the grammar when I learned English. I was taught what it is but not how to use it. So I don't remember what I've never used. My best skill is reading, but it's not the result of 7 years study English. It's because I had to read English documents and books for my study at the Uni. Now, I still believe that 7 years I spent at the high school to learn English is useless. I was very disappointed when I was at my first year at the Uni. I was a university student, and they taught me as the 12 years-old kid with the simple present is: S + V + .... I was very angry. Three years ago I decided to give up my English course at the university either the English school. My friend told me it was a dangerous decision when my English was very bad that time. I told her if they taught me that way, I already had been taught enough, and I didn't want to be taught like that anymore. I wanted to learn English as a language not like a subject I must learn and must pass the test they gave me. And I did what I wanted to do. I stopped learning English from that day but started using it as a language. It was very difficult for me at first when I had never read anything too long and had never listen English before, when I forgot all English grammars and my vocabulary was near to 0, but now, it's really not as terrible as that time. I can listen and can read. But I still have bad writing skill and don't speak English much because I live with Vietnamese.